Trolls
I am a Misogynist. (or, The Lengths I Will Go To In Order To Protect You From My Bad Behavior)
I have a confession to make. I am the reason we need to keep harping on about gendered insults. I am the reason we need to keep reminding people not to use words like “Honey,” or “Dearie” (unless, of course, someone posts under the pseudonym Honey or Dearie- which would be awkward). I’m the reason we need to keep reminding people that women are more than just a pretty face- that we should be attentive to measurements of them that can’t be expressed in either Metric or Imperial quantities.
I am a misogynist.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not going to be quoted on Man boobz any time soon. I’m not going to start droning on about how feminists have fucked up our entire society, or how all women are soiled by an overblown sense of entitlement, or why they can’t just shut up and make a damn sandwich for me. Those are things we traditionally think of as being misogyny. We all agree (well…fine, most of us agree) that these attitudes are not welcome in our society at large.
So why do I think I’m a misogynist?
I am generally ignorant of what it feels like to be a woman in my society. I sometimes blind to the ways I treat women different from men. Sometimes there are things that make the women in my life angry or uncomfortable that I just 
cannot relate to. I’ve called a woman a “bitch”, or used “bitchy” as a way to describe behavior that I would not necessarily have felt was “bitchy” of a guy. I can be less hard on a woman and her ideas than I would if they came from a man. I could go on confessing for hours, but I think you see the pattern.
I’m just not that good at consistently treating women with the respect that they deserve- the respect that I sometimes give all to easily to people who are men.
The fact that I notice these things gives me the tools to change my attitudes. Yet they are attitudes that are engrained in our language and culture- attitudes that inform our socialization. These attitudes take time and effort to overcome. They are part of my psyche, and minds are slow to discard even the most worthless of heuristics. I need to be reminded when preconceptions betray me.
I am a reluctant misogynist, and I’m trying to be a better man.
I am a homophobe.
I pass unfair judgements based on something as simple as who someone loves. I make jokes that perpetuate ridiculous stereotypes. I overcompensate at times.
I am transphobic.
Hell, I don’t even really know anyone who isn’t cisgendered. Virtually everything I know about what it means to be transgendered comes from a single blogger (H/T Natalie). I’m unbelievably ignorant.
I’m a racist.
I cannot really share the experiences of what it is like to be Black, Asian, Hispanic, East Indian, etc. I live in a town where I turn my head when I see a visible minority, because they are so obviously from “away”. I say certain things, at times, that cannot help but “other” my fellow man.
So what?
So when I hear people throw around these words at people like me, and my compatriots get entirely bent out of shape about how unfair it is to point out the ways they could improve- I get concerned that we aren’t really being internally skeptical. A misogynist is not just some guy harping on about Feminazis- he’s also the guy who thinks that harassment policies are a priori designed to prevent them from expressing sexuality in healthy and constructive ways. A homophobe is not just some guy who thinks that gays are morally depraved, he’s also the guy that tells us that he knows how they feel because he was bullied in school. A transphobic person isn’t just the person who assumes that they are all depraved, confused perverts- but also the person who refuses to acknowledge their preference in pronouns.
Fighting these attitudes means accepting responsibility for the ways we perpetuate bad behaviors. Racist jokes perpetuate attitudes that allow for systematic and overt racism- even when we think we are just being “funny”. The intent to harm or marginalize may not be there- but the repetition and perpetuation of lazy heuristics does the dirty 
work. We need to be conscious of those times when we let shorthand give an unintended narrative. One turn of phrase might take us 1000 words to set right.
I like being called a racist (well, not really- or at all, honestly. I appreciate the opportunity for self-correction). I like knowing that others are looking out for those times when I’m being lazy. I value being reproved when I’m approaching things from the wrong vantage point. Don’t get me wrong, I can be defensive. I can be skeptical of the degree to which I’m culpable. Those are human reactions.
We can’t stop calling out misogyny just because it is sub-contextual or unintended. We can’t stop calling out homophobia, transphobia and racism because it is harmless ignorant privilege and not crafted hateful attacks. We need to consciously decide to point out not just Man boobz level misogyny, but those innocent-enough moments when we parrot the ideas that are the mortar of institutionalized mistreatment of our fellow human beings.
If you won’t call me a misogynist- a racist, homophobe, transphobe- whatever, then we have a problem. We have a problem because you evidently don’t understand what those concepts mean. They mean that I am someone who needs to pay attention- I need to check my privilege. They are descriptive words for people who are not just blinded- but also shortsighted- by regressive patterns of thought.
So now that I’ve come clean about my faults, here is what I intend to do about it: I’m going to listen when you tell me I’m being insensitive. I’m going to gladly support you when you try to make common sense codes of conduct institutional- so that I’m reminded of what ought to be self evident. I’m going to use my skepticism as a tool of understanding as opposed to one for dismissing.
I’m going to go to great lengths to protect you from my bad ideas- and I hope you’ll do the same.
Read Full Post | Make a Comment ( 13 so far )An Open Letter to The Tone Troll
Hi there!
I bet you’re wondering why I’m writing you this letter. You might even be wondering why people are all so mad at you right now- and why they are calling you mean names. I know, I know- you were only trying to help, right? You just wanted to see a little decorum, a little civility- and everyone is just amplifying the very thing you are trying to help them discard. It must be frustrating. It must feel as though you are experiencing the cruel effects of tribalism- a sort of “internet xenophobia”, if you will. You are a mere missionary preaching the gospel of civil discourse and the lynch mob stands with torches and pitchforks waiting for you at the county line.
Amirite?
Here is the thing. Those people you were trying to help? They are having a conversation. That conversation has a topic. That topic is important to them. It is important enough that they are wearing their gut reactions on their sleeves. So when you come waltzing in, and you say “Guys- hey, guys- Y U mad, bro?” they are more than likely going to turn on you.
Why, you ask? You’re only trying to let cooler heads prevail, right? I totally get what you’re feeling right now. I understand.
What you need to understand is that the reason they are mad is right in front of you. It’s right there- in the post you are reading. Heck, it may even be summed up pretty succinctly in the title of the post. Yet here you are, telling these people that you don’t understand what could possibly have them up in arms. This, to them, is the problem.
Read Full Post | Make a Comment ( 9 so far )Imagine you find yourself in a hotel burning to the ground. You see a number of people frantically yelling to wake the guests up- pounding on doors and shouting. You have that mental image yet? Don’t worry, I’ll wait….. (more…)
Fahgettaboudit: What Happens When Right People Say The Wrong Things
There is a pattern emerging in the comment section of posts about “good people behaving badly”. It seems that some people seem obsessed with the idea that people we share some common goals with are beyond reproach.
Richard Dawkins writes off sexual harassment as a worthless First World Problem- people insist that he get a pass. Commenters all over the internet tell us that we can disagree, but politely- and we must- MUST- afford his comments the most charitable possible interpretation. I agree with Dawkins on most subjects- but I find his line of reasoning dismissive and dangerous on this issue. So why am I supposed to give that idea less measured criticism than I give to any other?
We come to respect people because they are uncannily right- so when they get something wrong- do they not equally earn criticism as they have earned esteem?
The faux-pas du jour is now DJ Grothe’s. The President of the James Randi Educational Foundation has handled the issue of harassment at TAM with all the tact of a bull moose courting a chihuahua.
DJ decided to do some classic victim blaming. He suggests that harassment victims “regret” past “sexual exploits”. In other words, he suggested that harassment is not that big of an issue because the people claiming to have experienced it are just feeling guilty for letting their hair down. Some of the bloggers out there have suggested (in no uncertain terms) that DJ is forwarding an offensive and unwelcoming opinion of people who are trying to share their experiences in an effort to make conferences safer and more enjoyable.
Once again, the chorus of those who think that certain people deserve a pass chimes in. Why should victim blaming be considered reasonable by virtue of the person who initiates it? Why should I or anybody else give Grothe’s comments the most charitable interpretation when such an interpretation doesn’t even exist? He doesn’t get a pass. He doesn’t get to act like he never said those things. People have a duty to call him to account until he acknowledges his mistake.
Did people call DJ some bad names? Sure. Has he earned most of them? Yep.
Ideas that don’t respect facts don’t deserve respect. Period.
They deserve to be mocked. They deserve to be attacked. They deserve disdain. Measured comments deserve measured responses. Poisonous comments deserve poisonous responses.
So why am I writing a post about this? Because a friend of mine is dealing with a troll over at his blog who is arguing that DJ deserves to be treated with more respect than his actions deserve. Not only that, said troll is arguing that he himself doesn’t deserve to be called a troll- and doesn’t deserve to be banned- because he is Kind of A Big Deal™.
The only way that sentiment could be any more annoying is if it was written in Comic Sans.
Top 10+2 Tips For Reaching Out To Atheists
I’m reblogging again. This time I have the pleasure of re-blogging from one of my favorite blogs, Camels With Hammers. Dan has laid out some really good tips for theists looking to reach out to atheists. If you are looking to fulfill the Great Commission, as opposed to just making atheists tune you out, here is a good place to start. There are many issues deterring productive communication between atheists and theists, I am sure I’ll get some tips from my Christian audience in the comments. Numbers 1 through 10 are in response to an open letter that Dan responded to from a Rabbi. Credit goes to Crommunist for #11 and I will add #12 based on my own experience.
Read Full Post | Make a Comment ( 18 so far )1. Do not “share the Gospel” with us.
I know, I know, you’re really worried we’re going to roast in hell and it’s really urgent to make sure we have heard about Jesus before that happens. But here’s what you can do instead: pretend that we actually know all about the Gospel and that we are not just confused about what Christianity teaches. Because, and I know this may come as a shock: Assuming we come from a country where the dominant religion is Christianity, we actually have heard the Gospel. Many, many times. And (sit down for this one) the odds are pretty good that we once believed it too. Some of us even know the Bible better than many of you do.
The odds are that most atheists you encounter were raised as Christians. And even if we were not, you can bet good money that someone somewhere along the way has told us all about how Jesus died for our sins. We get it. We do not need to hear it again from you and you do not have a way of saying it that’s going to bowl us over with its genius. (Yes, that includes Pascal’s Wager, we have heard that one too, thanks!)
2. Do not lie.
I know, this one sounds vaguely familiar but you cannot quite place where you have heard it. Let me put it a way that might ring a clearer bell: THOU SHALT NOT LIE, EVEN TO ATHEISTS.
Try to persuade us, if you like, but do not try to manipulate us in any way whatsoever. Either reason with us like adults and equals or leave us alone. Do not befriend us with ulterior motives of saving us when you do not really like us, do not try to subvert our reason by appealing to our hopes and fears, do not threaten us with damnation, etc. Do not claim that you have no intentions of changing our minds when you do have intentions of changing our minds. Do not claim not to judge us when you in fact do judge us. Do not make arguments that you already know can be reasonably refuted. Do not raise evidence you know is misleading. And do not try to appeal to our emotions where your reasons fail since doing so is underhanded and dishonest.
If you cannot persuade us with reason to believe, then you have no reason to believe and we will have no reason to believe. If you cannot persuade us with the truth, then you do not believe the truth and those who are interested in the truth will not believe you.
3. Do not assume you are either morally better, spiritually more attuned, or happier than we are simply because you belong to your faith.
Presuppositional Apologetics: Q and A With An Apologist Who Has No A…
In the hopes of having Peter clarify his opinions and commit to his own logic, I will answer several questions he asked in his newest post. I will intersperse his post with my replies, Peter in red, myself in blue. I will also not cherrypick his questions or commentary, because I am just that kind of guy. Peter, for those who are joining midstream, is not.
Clarification Needed
Hi George. I want to give you an adequate reply to your post here, but I need some further clarification from you before I do that.
I still argue that your whole argument rests on not clarifying your position or your interpretation of my position, so let’s be honest about why you are responding. You are hoping that you can force me to contradict myself. You won’t answer questions because you know that answering them shows you contradicting yourself. I’ll play the game, if only to show you that, unlike you, I have taken the time to think out my positions. You know which questions you continue to avoid. If you don’t then I can assume you uninformed based on reading comprehension alone. Let’s begin, shall we?
You wrote: “You will notice that I include objective morality as a possible option for the atheist.”
You also wrote: “Morality is objective in the sense that rules, whether understood by convention or natural order, are the basis for the definition of a species and how it interacts with the world.”
And also: “Morality is subjective in the sense that our choices impact our ability to survive; so the best solution is not always clear, or do not impact our survival, so that reason can transcend a rule that has outlived its merit.”
My question for you is this: is being self-contradictory objectively wrong? Or is the claim, “being self-contradictory is wrong,” a matter of personal opinion, i.e., subjectively wrong? The reason I ask is because you accused the Bible of being self-contradictory. Then later you wrote: “Are you morally obligated to follow the laws of logic? Nope. You have every right to be wrong.”
George: First, do you believe it self-contradictory to believe that morality has both subjective and objective elements? Only you have argued that morality is purely one or the other. That said, is being self-contradictory objectively wrong? By almost any metric the answer would be yes. To clarify, it might be possible for your opinion to be self-contradictory and still get the right answer, but that would be unlikely. I really cannot clarify this for you enough Peter; you have no obligation to accept truth. It really helps, but you are not forced by anyone to have an opinion. You are obliged by reality and society to accept the consequences of your actions. If you can show me where your opinion on X is more important than the nature of X, then I’m willing to listen. Being wrong and thinking something is wrong are two different things. You have always attempted to conflate the two, but you thinking it doesn’t make it so. Here’s your false dichotomy. Something can be both thought wrong and objectively wrong, you can be objectively wrong but not be thought wrong, you can be thought wrong but not be objectively wrong. Your opinion, my opinion, it doesn’t matter. That is not what someone who uses the word “subjective” when talking about morality means. You can insist that it is, but it doesn’t make it so. If your opinion does change the meaning of how someone communicates an idea, then you are a “subjectivist” yourself. The word “subjective” you use, as well as the word “objective” you use, have very different meanings for you then they do for someone who argues the subjective nature of morality. Maybe you are correct to assume that they are using the wrong word, perhaps “contextual” is a better one. Morals are both objective, in that there are some opinions that are wrong regardless of any persons opinion, or subjective in that they are not objectively wrong but moral/immoral/neutral by the metric of the person who judges it. Is capital punishment wrong? By my metric, yes. Can I see why it is a contentious issue? Sure. Do I consider people who support capital punishment immoral? Yes. That is my opinion, and it is shared by many people. Would I consider that opinion to be an objective moral truth? Not really. Does that analogy help at all?
I have another question that concerns what you wrote here: “In order for the premise that subjective morality is self-contradictory to be true, man must be unable to refuse an objective moral truth by fiat.”
Whose fiat are you talking about? And so I’m clear, are you saying that the ability to disobey a law shows that morality is not objective? Or have I misunderstood you? Also, do you make a distinction between, on the one hand, whether one is able to or can break a law, and on the other hand, whether one is permitted or allowed to break a law?
You wrote: “In order for your premise to stand you must prove that man is solitary by nature, that nothing in reality transcends his personal opinion of what is moral or immoral.”
To which premise were you referring? Also, so you’re clear, I do not believe that there is nothing in reality that transcends man’s personal opinion. God is transcendent.
You have most certainly misunderstood me if you think that the statement “In order for the premise that subjective morality is self-contradictory to be true, man must be unable to refuse an objective moral truth by fiat.” has anything to do with whether morality is objective or subjective or both. It is a statement about your belief that subjective morality is self-contradictory. It is a statement that shows you are wrong. That doesn’t mean subjective morality is right, or that objective morality is wrong. It doesn’t mean the opposite of that either. It means that the opinion that subjective morality is self-contradictory is wrong. I say that because your premise for proving self-contradiction is that someone’s (in this case your) ability to refuse to accept truth makes that truth worthless. You have every right to disagree with Jason, I have every right to break God’s Law, neither of these fact make either premise self-contradictory. If you disagree with Jason and he is right, there are consequences, the first being that you are wrong. His opinion of whether you are wrong or not has no bearing here. Nor does your opinion that you are right. When I talk about what transcends your opinion, I refer to facts, consequences, reality, logic, human nature, and human constructs. Your opinion of whether Jason is right or wrong has no bearing on any of these things. A subjective moralist would say that his opinion of your moral obligations is beside the point, that your wages are due to those things that transcend his opinion. That sounds familiar to your presuppositional opinion that your moral obligation is owed to God. Where the subjective moralist differs is that he understands morality to be logically contingent to its variables as opposed to the commandment of some (possibly non-existent) higher power. You essentially end up saying the same thing in different language, you just presuppose that if there is a God, he is infallible, and therefor must be consistent with at least the first five of the six transcendent variables I listed above. You presuppose. Not me.
You wrote: “By picking and choosing what you want the definitions to be, you create black and white pronouncements from a million shades of gray.”
I was operating according to the dictionary definitions of objective and subjective. There are free dictionaries online for you to look up the meanings. Should I assume from your comment here that we should go by your definition of objective and subjective instead of the dictionary definitions of these words? If so, then I refuse. There’s no reason we can’t use the dictionary definitions of these words.
I’m not asking you to accept my definitions of those words. I’m asking you to accept the definition of a word in the context it is being used, as opposed to the context you want to apply to it. The funny thing about the English language is that words have multiple meanings, some of them with only subtle differences. “Subjective”, as I mentioned in an earlier response, has different uses with subtle differences. You insist on using it as an admission that atheists believe morality is a personal opinion, because you use this definition:
The Free Online Dictionary provides the following as the primary definition of subjective:
a. Proceeding from or taking place in a person’s mind rather than the external world: a subjective decision.
b. Particular to a given person; personal: subjective experience.
When just a few mouseclicks down from that definition you get this one:
Also, you wrote: “Logic does not transcend reality, it is a slave to it. Logic is objective. ………. What transcends logic to make it objective? Reality.”
Are you saying that logic is not part of reality? If reality transcends logic, then is it impossible for logic to be part of reality?
Looking forward to your clarification so that I might give you a proper reply.
See Peter, this is where all our trouble starts. You really need to read beyond the first line of a definition. If you bother to use your favorite Free Online Dictionary, and move down to the other two definitions of “transcend” you will find that transcendent has the following definition:
3. To exist above and independent of (material experience or the universe)
The definition you want to use is #3 from the second definition:
3. (Philosophy) Philosophy Theol (esp of the Deity) to exist beyond (the material world)
You can ruminate for hours about how I am wrong by subtly changing the meaning of my words out of their context. You have done it before, you’ll do it again I’m sure. When I say that logic is a slave to reality, I am obviously making a distinction between the two, but saying that one (logic) is dependent on the other (reality). Logic is objective in that its very definition means that it comports with reality. If it does not, it is not logic, it is imagination. Reality happens whether you are willing to make sense of it or not. Logic is constructed to reveal truths about reality. Can we, by consensus, change the rules of logic? Semantically, yes. We can’t, however, change reality so any change we agreed to would have to comport with reality or else it wouldn’t be logic. We could call it logic, but that would redefine the word, and seems rather pointless.
Your trick here is to make someone agree with the fact that the laws of logic are man made constructs, which in one sense they are, then argue that they are then a matter of opinion. By this metric, gravity is a man made construct, so do you propose that I might deny the laws of gravity and levitate around?
You want to play semantic games, because that is the entire point of presuppositional apologetics, to play with meanings and extrapolate consequences based on your interpretations. You do not get to decide what I must believe. I should be able to explain it, if asked, but just because you don’t want to listen doesn’t make you right.
Presuppositional Morality: Is It Moral To Ignore Me Peter, or Just An Objective Requirement?
Presuppositionalist Peter, of Atheism Presupposes Theism, posted the following reply to comment I made at his site over the last few days. My attempts to comment on his blog have thus far failed for reasons that I am unsure of. His post:
1st Reply to George
I have a job. I work for a living. I can’t be at your beck and call.
George: “Killing is wrong. I agree with you.”
Do you believe that killing is objectively wrong or subjectively wrong?
George: “If there are some exceptions to that rule does that not make it by nature subjective, in that it requires context?”
The Free Online Dictionary provides the following as the primary definition of subjective:
a. Proceeding from or taking place in a person’s mind rather than the external world: a subjective decision.
b. Particular to a given person; personal: subjective experience.
This might not be the best definition of subjective, but I’m providing it for you anyway because I’m not sure that you understand what you’re saying. However, I do believe that context is a key component in considering the morality of an action. But so also is motivation, effect and, of course, the standard by which an action is deemed right or wrong.
George: “Unless you only consider murder a moral question and not killing? Killing seems to me to be a moral question, I wonder if you agree?”
In the Christian worldview, every action or deed is a moral matter, since everything we do is either to God’s glory or to our own glory.
George: “… I wonder if we are even able to agree on the definition of morality out of the gates.”
Probably not as the Christian position is that morality is not a matter of subjective or personal opinion.
George: “You state, in your answer, that killing is not a moral question.”
I did not state that. It is a moral question. But as you said, we likely disagree on the definition of morality.
George: “So you can kill at will, so long as you are justified in doing so?”
There is a distinction between killing at will and killing when you are justified in doing so. Perhaps what we need to clarify is when killing is justified. I gave three examples already as to when it is justified: self-defence, just war and capital punishment. Of course, even these three examples need further clarification and explanation. For example, I hear both atheists and theists say they’re in favour of capital punishment. I hear both atheists and theists say they’re opposed to capital punishment. Also, people might disagree over what constitutes a just war as opposed to a unjust war.
George: “If you killed me today, because God told you to do it, you would not be morally culpable?”
Since the close of the canon of Scripture, God no longer speaks in a direct fashion as He did, for example, to the prophets of the Old Testament. I know that may sound weird to you, but there it is for you anyway. Yes, it would be wrong for me to kill you, unless you were trying to kill me.
George: “I’m struggling to follow your logic, because I suspect there is none to follow.”
Are the laws of logic universal and invariant? Or are they a matter of convention?
George: “So we are clear, Christianity only comports with child killing, as long as God told you to do it. Your words. So if God decided to tell you to kill your children, then you are morally right to do as he says. Glad you cleared that up for us.”
You are not clear.
George: “How, then, are we to know what God told you? Does He give you a receipt? If someone kills their children and tell you that God commanded it, are you morally bound to believe him? What is the procedure?”
God reveals Himself in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament. He also reveals Himself in creation. Now, you may not agree with that and you may not like that, but that is how God reveals Himself. It’s not magical and it’s not cryptic. If you want to know what God reveals and who He is, then go watch a sunrise, watch the frost form on a window, go see the northern lights, go and read the Bible.
Also, the reason I asked the question about the difference between a human killing a human and a lion killing a zebra is because the atheist worldview says that man is just an animal that evolved from animals. But in the Christian worldview, man is created in God’s image. Yes, man shares certain similarities with animals, but in the Christian worldview man also shares similarities with God, such as the ability to reason, to imagine, to create, to be self-aware, to make choices, etc., etc. Why is the difference between humans and animals so astronomically huge? The Christian worldview can account for that whereas the atheistic worldview cannot.
My first attempt to post a reply went like this:
O.K., I’ll play along, but your 15 minutes is almost up. Every single commenter here has poked holes in your boat, and your already drowning and telling the coast guard you’re just fine. This whole debate is turning into the “Black Knight” scene from “Quest for the Holy Grail”, and just like in the movie, eventually we give up arguing against your false reality and move on.
“I have a job. I work for a living. I can’t be at your beck and call.”
See, that seems clever, until your apologist friends read the conversation and notice that it’s not that you <b>didn’t</b> respond because you were busy. You responded to other comments just fine. You still haven’t responded to the request for a Bible verse condemning pedophilia that was asked 5 days ago now, yet you had the time to write 14 comments and 3 blog posts in the interim.
“Do you believe that killing is objectively wrong or subjectively wrong?”
You really do not listen. Guess. Use your logic.
“The Free Online Dictionary provides the following as the primary definition of subjective:
a. Proceeding from or taking place in a person’s mind rather than the external world: a subjective decision.
b. Particular to a given person; personal: subjective experience.”
I’m glad you can look things up. The same source offers this definition:
1. belonging to, proceeding from, or relating to the mind of the thinking subject and not the nature of the object being considered
2. of, relating to, or emanating from a person’s emotions, prejudices, etc. subjective views
Why would you conflate a definition that clearly tells you it relates to “decisions” or “experience” with one that relates to “views”: the very subject we are talking about? Especially when it’s on the same page? Reading comprehension, Peter, reading comprehension.
“This might not be the best definition of subjective, but I’m providing it for you anyway because I’m not sure that you understand what you’re saying. However, I do believe that context is a key component in considering the morality of an action. But so also is motivation, effect and, of course, the standard by which an action is deemed right or wrong.”
Wow, we actually found a clause we can agree on in totality! You’re right that your definition is not the best one. You are indeed providing it because you are trying to put words in my mouth. The rest I cannot find fault with, for you proceed to concede that you can apply prejudices that are independent from the nature of the object being considered. Read the definition again Peter.
Also, show me the asterisk in the Bible after the commandment “Thou Shalt Not Kill”.
“In the Christian worldview, every action or deed is a moral matter, since everything we do is either to God’s glory or to our own glory.”
This may be important soon…..
…I gave three examples already as to when it is justified: self-defence, just war and capital punishment. Of course, even these three examples need further clarification and explanation.”…
See how I indicated when I paraphrase? That lets people know that there is context. It is called being intellectually honest. Anyway, You didn’t really give three, you gave four. You included revelation. By not including it here you make it seem like I was putting words in your mouth when you make your next point. Just so we are clear, I did no such thing.
I won’t bother to address the next point, I will accept that that is your position on revelation. I obviously fundamentally disagree, based on the presupposition that there is in fact a “God” to communicate with.
“God reveals Himself in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament. He also reveals Himself in creation. Now, you may not agree with that and you may not like that, but that is how God reveals Himself. It’s not magical and it’s not cryptic. If you want to know what God reveals and who He is, then go watch a sunrise, watch the frost form on a window, go see the northern lights, go and read the Bible.”
This will become very important soon….
“the atheist worldview says that man is just an animal that evolved from animals. But in the Christian worldview, man is created in God’s image. Yes, man shares certain similarities with animals, but in the Christian worldview man also shares similarities with God, such as the ability to reason, to imagine, to create, to be self-aware, to make choices, etc., etc. Why is the difference between humans and animals so astronomically huge? The Christian worldview can account for that whereas the atheistic worldview cannot.”
Show me one human behavior that cannot be found to have an unambiguous parallel in the animal kingdom. Other than a God postulate, which we can neither prove nor disprove has a parallel. You haven’t even done that yet. As I pointed out, your premise of the lion and the zebra is a false conflation. Prove yourself.
I then commented thus, in order to try and make the debate more civil…..
My other attempts to comment on this post failed, I assume because Blogger had some issues.
My full response to this post is at my blog, as well as a shorter version in the thread at Jason’s blog.
I want to take this opportunity to thank you for the discussion, I feel that in the last few days I was able to more closely question the reasons for my beliefs. Your questions, and the questions I asked myself when formulating my responses, took me to task to make sense of my intuitions about morality. The end result is that I still fundamentally disagree with you and now know why.
Your position that morality is objective and can only be understood by positing a God is really no different than the atheists position on subjective morality. If we take the time to understand each others definitions of “subjective” and “objective” we realize that both of us are putting words in the other persons mouth, not a very helpful tactic.
Both the atheist and theist will come to terms with morality within their own worldview, and if someone presupposes a Christian God to exist, then they would have to come to your conclusions about morality. Likewise, if someone posits an absence of Gods, they must come to the conclusions I have. Where presuppositionalism goes wrong is that it employs a number of false dichotomies to make a case a presupposition of God. It exists as a way for Christians to tell atheists how atheists think, and by that metric alone it is disingenuous.
For example, when you say to Jason that if you have no moral obligation to accept anything he says, you are in fact saying the same thing as “I am exercising my free will (and if Jason’s comments are truthful, my sinful nature) in not accepting anything you say”. I would ask you to explain the subtle differences between these two expressions of the same situation. It is only a difference in expression that in one case you are sinning against God in disregarding an objective moral truth(for which you will face judgment) and in the other you are placing yourself in the situation of being wrong (and subject to judgment by a society that values the facts)
I think I know your answer, but I’ll let you present a case for it.
As I said before, your conflation of a human killing a human and a lion killing a zebra is a false one. Either we discuss the differences between lion on lion vs human on human or lion on zebra vs human on cow/fish/zebra etc.
Lions do not appear to wantonly kill other lions, nor is cannibalism common. Does that imply that lions were also made in God’s image? Why are there so many moral parallels between the behavior of animals and humans? The scientific worldview can account for that whereas the theistic worldview cannot.
Please read my comments to the rest of your points on my blog or Jason’s.
I hope he is not just avoiding me…..
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Check(Mate?) On Presuppositional Morality: How Peter Gets to Murder His Kids And There is Nothing You Can Do About It.
This post is a continuation of the discussion between Peter, a pressupositonalist, Jason of Lousy Canuck, and myself. The sources from which I pull quotations from Peter are available at Lousy Canuck, and on Atheism Presupposes Theism, in posts and comments here and here. I will attempt to use his own words and the implied logic of them to reveal the absurdity of his argument. If any one disagrees with the logic of my argument, I will as always be prepared to answer questions. If you are a presuppositionalist, be aware that I reserve the right to have you clarify your premise and commit to it before I will respond to questions unrelated to the exact words of this post. I am reasonable, but I will not play games until you commit to the rules.
The Third Move Is Where You Break “The First Rule” Of Presuppositionalism
I have a good friend who is a chess phenom. He says you don’t win a game of chess, you lose a game of chess. He has even told me that you can lose in the first three moves. In presuppositional apologetics, the trick is to make two moves, claim that their opponent has already lost, and refuse to play the rest of the game. The trick works only if you believe that you can lose without playing it out, and only if the presuppositionalist never makes that third move. If he makes it, I can follow any combination of moves he will make from then on to a checkmate.
He can continue to tell those that will listen that I already lost in the first two moves, but he can’t prove it, because it requires that third move.
The third move is to commit to your own premise, the third move is the losing one for any moral presuppositionalist strategy.
If the first rule of Fight Club is “never talk about Fight Club” then the first rule of presuppositional moral apologetics should be:
Never commit to a moral position.
You took a position on a moral Peter. You broke the first rule.
Setting Peter’s Ground Rules
Each of these rules and logical extensions are derived directly from Peter’s arguments. If at any time I make a logical conclusion that is not a direct result of Peter’s logic, then I will be happy to defend it against criticism.
Postulate #1
A worldview is defined as self-defeating and therefor not logically consistent if it is possible to deny it based on it’s own postulates.
This is derived from the statement:
Premise #1: Jason believes that what he is saying is factual.
Premise #2: Jason believes that people are not morally obligated to accept the facts.
Conclusion: Jason believes that people are not morally obligated to accept what he is saying.If premise #1 is false, then we can disregard what Jason is saying. If premise #2 is true, then we can disregard what Jason is saying. Either way, we can disregard what you’re saying. That’s a self-defeating position.
Also note that from this postulate we must first prove that Jason is not lying, but may be mistaken,else the conclusion is a non-sequitor.
From Peter’s own interpretation, if someone is able to disregard a truth within the premise of their worldview, then that worldview is a self defeating one.
Is everyone following so far?
Postulate #2
Killing is justified if there is a just reason for doing it. These reasons include self-defence, just war, and God’s authorization, which can be known by revelation through a reading of The Old and New Testament.
Peter says:
There is a distinction between killing at will and killing when you are justified in doing so. Perhaps what we need to clarify is when killing is justified.
also,
Killing is wrong, but since we live in a fallen and sinful world, there are some exceptions to the rule (self-defense, just war, capital punishment in appropriate situations, etc.) Killing is only appropriate when God authorizes it, otherwise it’s murder.
So we are clear on that….
then he says:
Since the close of the canon of Scripture, God no longer speaks in a direct fashion as He did, for example, to the prophets of the Old Testament.
……
God reveals Himself in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament. He also reveals Himself in creation. Now, you may not agree with that and you may not like that, but that is how God reveals Himself. It’s not magical and it’s not cryptic. If you want to know what God reveals and who He is, then go watch a sunrise, watch the frost form on a window, go see the northern lights, go and read the Bible.
From these statements we can say that God no longer speaks to man, but reveals himself through scripture. So a passage in scripture can be interpreted as a revelation of God. We also note that we live in a fallen and sinful world.
Peter Kills His Kids, But “That’s O.K.-I’m A Presuppositionalist”, says Peter.
We now live in a world of presuppositional moralists. Everyone accepts the rules I have just defined. To itemize them for everyone, they are:
- A worldview is defined as self-defeating and therefor not logically consistent if it is possible to deny it based on it’s own postulates.
- If someone is able to disregard a truth within the premise of their worldview, then that worldview is a self defeating one.
- Killing is justified if there is a just reason for doing it.
- These reasons include self-defence, just war, and God’s authorization, which can be known by revelation through a reading of The Old and New Testament.
- God no longer speaks to man, but reveals himself through scripture. So a passage in scripture can be interpreted as a revelation of God.
- We live in a fallen and sinful world.
A detective arrives at the scene of the crime, Peter is standing over the dead body of his child. The officer questions him:
Detective: What happened here?
Peter: My child spoke back to me, so I killed him
Detective: Alright then, case closed. We’ll remove the body for you, have a good night, sir! God bless.
Why did that just happen?
Peter killed his child for speaking back to him, an objective moral command as revealed by God in Leviticus 20:9.
He was, by his own definition, justified in doing so as it was revealed to him in the bible, as such authorized by God(From 4&5). The detective has no right to question his assertion, because it is a truth, and denying it would make a presuppositionalist worldview self-defeating(From 1). Ah, but what if Peter was lying? Surely the detective has no right to assume the truth of his testimony? Sure he does. If Peter’s testimony were a lie, by definition he would have to know the truth and rejected it. That would make presuppositionalism self defeating, because if you are faced with a truth, you are unable to deny it, or else your worldview is self-defeating(Again, from 1). Since we are presuppositionalists, we know that the Christian worldview is correct, therefor he cannot lie. But wait. We live in a sinful and fallen world(6). He must be able to lie. Well, no. If man were able to sin, they could ignore their Objective Moral requirement to not believe a truth, and that would make their whole worldview self defeating(1). So either way, the presuppositionalist must retract the first premise of this argument, or claim that sin is impossible, or admit that there is no grounds for even contemplating Peter’s culpability in a presuppositionalist world. Christianity therefor not only comports with child killing, it outright requires it. Then it requires that everyone shrug it off as a moral obligation.
Check(mate?)
Quote of the day: If killing, to a Christian, is murder with a just reason, then I suppose the parallel is murder is to lying as killing is to presuppositional apologetics.
Read Full Post | Make a Comment ( 12 so far )Presuppositional Apologetics: TAH DAH! Let Me Pull God Out Of A Hat.
So a number of my replies to Peter, over at Atheism Presupposes Theism, have been deleted by him in an effort to try and pretend that he wasn’t just destroyed by the truth. That is not hubris on my part, take the time to read it for yourself, though you will have to go to lousy Canuck to see my replies, because Peter won’t publish them. If you can read the exchange between Peter, Jason, and I and still think I’m exaggerating, I invite you to tell me how. Presupposational apologetics is a farce. It is a joke. It cannot be taken seriously. If you think differently, then please enlighten me. I have decided that this year will be the year that I pull the curtain back from presupposational apologetics and reveal the diminutive little man pretending to be a wizard. I take this seriously, presuppositionalism is wrong, it is a bald faced lie. Why do I dislike it so much? It is a lie masquerading, not just as a truth, but the Truth. Those who practice it with any skill have to know it is a lie, a big lie for God.
If intelligent Christians can knowingly lie to bolster my faith, of what value is that faith at all? If every question must be addressed with an ultimate untruth, how can I claim that my belief is not based on a foundation of lies?
Presuppositionalism depends on a shell game; it is a magic trick. It relies on the premise that no one will follow the pea as it slips from shell to shell, up the sleeve, then back to the shell again. “Keep your eye on the pea, keep your eye on the pea” the magician tells you as you watch the trick. But you can’t “watch the pea”. It is under the shell, maybe. Maybe it is up his sleeve, maybe he dropped it off the table into his lap. ” Whatever you do”, he implies, “don’t watch my hands, and for heaven’s sake don’t ask any questions. Just trust me when I tell you it is magic.”
As soon as someone figures out the scam, he has a few choices. Pack up and bring the game to a new and unwitting audience, keep playing as if no-one is yelling “SHOW ME YOUR PALM”, or admit that he is fooling his audience. I can say with no trepidation that an apologist will never take the latter option.
If you are a presuppositionalist, I ask you this. Would you let the shell game be played if I put the pea under the shell, I moved the shells from one place to the other, if I turned them over? You wouldn’t, would you? Why? If it is reality, then we should be able to do it any which way and it will still be real, right? If morality is objective, then you should be able to answer a series of questions about the objective nature of reality, with no harm to your case. If you have a truth, then it will always stand the test of scruitiny, right, or do you know that “opening your palm” gives away the trick? You can only win by avoiding the consequences of your position and insisting on your interpretation of the opposing position without facts. You can’t even concede your own position, that’s how ridiculous it is. It’s a magic trick. It’s dishonest because you pass it off as reality, when you have to know it’s not.
On Magic
When I was a kid, my Grandfather loved magic tricks. He used to hide a quarter between his fingers on the back of his hand, show me his palms, and then appear to pull a quarter out of my ear. I was amazed. He had a card trick called the “Four Jack Brothers”, where he seemingly moved the four of them to random positions in the deck, then have all four of them appear back on the top just by tapping the deck. I sat there for hours trying to figure it out. It seemed like my Grandfather really was magical.
On my ninth birthday, my parents bought me a book about how to do magic tricks, they very astutely noticed my sense of wonder. When I read the book, there was a card trick, called the “Four Queens”, which was <b>exactly</b> the trick my Grandfather did, and a page about pulling coins from a persons ear. Once I knew the trick, the magic was gone. All that was left was trickery.
That summer, I went to a birthday party. The magician there had better tricks, but I was wise to the game. It took me a while, but I figured out how each of his tricks worked. I performed the exact same routine for all but a few of them. My best friend was amazed. “How did you do that?”, he said. “Magic”, I said. He has asked me if I did it this way, or that way; and I always say no, but I never lie. To this day he still gets me to do the tricks at every party we go to; to this day, he really thinks I’m magic.
The difference between my Grandfather, Peter, and me is that my Grandfather never said that what he did was reality, in fact, he always called it a “magic <b>trick</b>”. So do I. I never asked my friend to suspend disbelief. My Grandfather never stopped me from sitting around with that deck of cards trying to figure it out; when I did figure it out, he didn’t refuse to speak with me, or burn my book so no-one else figured it out. Likewise, I don’t shun my friends questions, and I wouldn’t avoid a discussion about whether I put the card up my sleeve. I would prove to him that I didn’t, because I didn’t. Peter does none of these things. He claims that what he does is reality, refuses to let anyone see up his sleeves, and proceeds to continue the slight of hand show for anyone who is willing to not question it.
The worst thing about it is that I knew what I was doing was slight of hand. My Grandfather knew what he was doing was slight of hand. Peter has to know what he is doing. I showed him how he did the trick and he deleted my comments. I showed him how he did the other tricks and he deleted those comments too. Yet instead of patting me on the back and coming clean like my Grandfather, or showing me that I am mistaken about how it works like I do with my friend, he just continues on like nothing is happening, hoping the School for the Deaf in his audience doesn’t turn from the stage long enough to see me sitting beside them explaining the trick.
My big problem is that I know I’m not magic, so does my Grandfather. If he believes that presupposational apologetics is the best proof of God, what must that say about his faith?
I think I’m going to go show my friend how those tricks work now…..
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